Collage 008               H u m o u r N e t                    1994

As promised: The "Flame War" piece.

- Vince Sabio
  HumourNet Moderator
  HumourNet@telephonet.com
____________________________________________________________________
          Opener (above) Copyright 1994 by Vincent Sabio
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  please observe the guidelines stated at the end of the message.
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SUBJ: ROADMAP FILE: FLAME WAR

     "Every absurdity has a champion to defend it" -- Oliver Goldsmith

So you want to see a REAL flame war, huh?? :)

The following flame war recently occurred on a "relatively quiet
Usenet newsgroup." To protect the guilty (as well as to prevent
the people on this "relatively quiet Usenet newsgroup" from
hunting me down and wounding me), I've replaced all of the
people's real names with random letters. For example, a post
from Bill Gates saying "Are you an Idiot?" would appear as:

     a: Are you an idiot?

I've attempted to keep the same letter for each poster, but may not
have succeeded.  Anything that is NOT preceeded by a letter is my own
comment.

Where one poster quotes another, the greater-than sign (>) is used, as is
customary on the net.  A considerable number of these quotes were omitted
where clarity permitted it.

I have substituted asterisks (*) for cusswords, since some of the
Roadmap participants are elementary school students :)

Finally, special thanks goes to my dad -- The Rev. Bob "Bob" Crispen --
for pretty much typing this whole flame war file for me. He deserves
all of the credit.

With that said, let the show begin!

-----

(* NOTE: THE DISCUSSION ON THIS "RELATIVELY QUIET USENET NEWSGROUP" WAS
ABOUT TEST RESULTS FOR DEVICES THAT JAM POLICE RADAR GUNS *)

One person remarked:

     c: Well if you want to take it to the letter of the Law, any cop who
     c: uses a radar gun is breaking the Law.  There is a Federal Law that
     c: says that radio stations transmitting radio signals must identify
     c: themselves at the beginning of the transmission and at regular.
     c: intervals (if continuous). I wonder if you could test this in court.

To which the person about to become the main flame-ee asserted:

     p: Except:  (1) radar uses microwaves, not radio waves.  (2) a police
     p: officer is not a radio station.  (3) the FCC specifically authorizes
     p: certain frequencies for police radar.

This promped the reply:

     f: >Except:  (1) radar uses microwaves, not radio waves.
     f:
     f: Heh, heh, heh...
     f:
     f: You payin' much fer that ed-you-cation, boy?

And now we're off to the races:

     p: Apparently you haven't gotten one yet!  If you've got something
     p: to say, say it.  But snide remarks in the absence of anything else
     p: is a waste of bandwidth.

     k: >(1) radar uses microwaves, not radio waves.
     k:
     k: Ooooooohhhh...that clears it all up.

     p: Microwaves ARE radio waves, just at a higher frequency.

     b: One more *classic* entry for the "Facts a la p" file!

     p: So, b, you want to argue regions of the electromagnetic spectrum?
     p: Radio waves = wavelength > 0.1 m; microwaves = wavelength > 0.001 m
     p: but < 0.1 m (or, radio = frequency < 3 GHz; microwave = frequency
     p: between 3 GHz and 300 GHz.  This is what we teach in science classes;
     p: if 18-year olds can learn it, so can you!  In chemistry, radio
     p: waves correspond to a difference in nuclear spin levels; microwaves
     p: correspond to a difference in rotational energy levels.  Two entirely
     p: different effects for two different regions of the EM spectrum.

     b: So what you're saying is that there is a point between 2.999999 and
     b: 3.000001 GHz where there is a fundamental and quantum change in the
     b: way radio signals behave?  I don't believe I've heard that before.
     b:
     b: They used to teach (probably in science class, also) that if a human
     b: went over 60 MPH, it would be fatal.  Fortunately, some 18-year-olds
     b: couldn't learn that one either.

     t: What the ** are you talking about!
     t:
     t: Long, medium, short, micro...  they are ALL radio waves.
     t:
     t: I think you're inhaling a bit too much ether in the chem lab there...
     t: better pop downstairs to the physics lab.
     t:
     t: And you know what...  TV doesn't use radio waves either... it uses
     t: TV waves.
     t:
     t: BTW: I can prove that ice isn't water.  If I bonk you on the head with
     t: a water balloon, the balloon will break... however, if I bonk
     t: you on the head with an Ice Balloon, your head will break.  The only
     t: real difference is the energy levels present in the two mediums,
     t: but since water is H2O, this proves that ice can't be.
     t:
     t: Put that in your centrifuge and smoke it.

     h: They are radio waves, p, they are.

     s: Some totally clueless idiot wrote:
     s:
     s: >Except:  (1) radar uses microwaves, not radio waves.
     s:
     s: Someone who managed to stay awake during elementary science class
     s: wrote.
     s:
     s: >Heh, heh, heh...
     s: >You payin' much fer that ed-you-cation, boy?
     s:
     s: This apparently offended our shining scholar....who must be one of
     s: those admitted only by the recent plan to add arbitrary numbers to
     s: SAT scores...
     s:
     s: >Apparently you haven't gotten one yet!  If you've got something
     s: >to say, say it.  But snide remarks in the absence of anything else
     s: >is a waste of bandwidth.
     s:
     s: OK.   You are an idiot.
     s:
     s: In case your education hasn't yet gotten to Remedial Science 101
     s: yet, what the other poster was hinting is that only an idiot
     s: would make a statement that microwaves are NOT radio waves.
     s:
     s: Scary that there are people allegedly graduating from 3rd grade
     s: science education that totally out of touch.  Scary scary.

     p: Well, no.  Different region of the electromagnetic spectrum.
     p: If you're going to argue this, you could argue visible light is also
     p: radio waves at a MUCH higher frequency.

     s: By JOVE, it seems our internet.scholar.of.the.year has managed to
     s: accidentally figure it out.
     s:
     s: Next he is gonna claim that people shouldn't use the terms RF
     s: or RFI when speaking about microwaves...cause he has decided that
     s: microwaves aren't radio waves.

     p: If radio waves were being used, they would penetrate your car, not be
     p: reflected off it.  Radio waves do penetrate your house, for example.
     p: You can have a transistor radio inside the car with you and it will
     p: play, so radio waves penetrate your car.  Radar (microwaves) depends
     p: on reflection by your car to work.

     s: Ohhhhhhh.  I've been penetrated!
     s:
     s: If you insist that microwaves aren't radio waves, how do you justify
     s: mixing radar waves and microwaves.  Only SOME radar frequencies are
     s: in the microwave band of the electromagnetic spectrum...

     s: Amazing just how stupid one can be even while able to quote numbers
     s: (reasonably out of context by the way) out of a textbook or books.

The next poster decides that it's been far too long since we discussed
the American educational system versus the Japanese educational system:

     w: Without trying to stir up the "racial" mess again, I just have to
     w: comment on this... with posts like this coming out of the edu sites,
     w: it's no wonder the Japanese are kicking our ***es in the electronics
     w: industry.

This next poster is obviously not getting the spirit of the thing:

     z: The FCC defines radio waves as "Electromagnetic waves of frequencies
     z: arbitrarily lower than 3,000 GHz, propagated in space without
     z: artificial guide".  (47 CFR part 2.1)

He is ignored.

     j: >If radio waves were being used, they would penetrate your car, not be
     j: >reflected off it.  Radio waves do penetrate your house, for example.
     j: >You can have a transistor radio inside the car with you and it
     j: >will play, so radio waves penetrate your car.  Radar (microwaves)
     j: >depends on reflection by your car to work.
     j:
     j: But what about -
     j:
     j:     MILLIMETER WAVE RADARS?!?!?!
     j:
     j: P, please enlighten me!

K quotes himself in a posting that must have disappeared:

     k: >Conclusion:  Since the radio stopped working in a microwave oven,
     k: >radio waves are not microwaves.  Way to go P.
     k:
     k: Sorry, I meant to say the experiment's conclusion is that microwaves
     k: are not radio waves.  I don't want anybody to think I was misstating
     k: P.
     k:
     k: >Sub-Conclusion:  Since cats stop working in a microwave oven, cats
     k: >are radios.
     k:
     k: This still holds.  I'm going to go listen to my cats now.

     s: No kidding.  The illustrious junior mr. wizard also claims that
     s: "radio waves don't reflect."  Guess he musta slept thru the Sesame
     s: Street episodes mentioning multipath distortion in FM and never
     s: noticed his TV picture fluttering when an airplane goes overhead,
     s: and never wondered what causes TV ghosting.  Ooops, sorry, according
     s: to our budding genius, TV waves wouldn't be "radio waves" either,
     s: would they.

     m: While shining a simple light at Lidar wavelengths is in general legal
     m: (there might a DOT rule?), if you try to use a laser (which is
     m: coherent light), you fall under not only FCC regulations but OSHA
     m: regulations.

     w: The FCC has regulations that cover the optical portion of the
     w: spectrum?
     w:
     w: Either they did this without telling any optical engineers, or this is
     w: really new.

     p: > Ohhhhhhh.  I've been penetrated!
     p: >
     p: > If you insist that microwaves aren't radio waves, how do you justify
     p: > mixing radar waves and microwaves.  Only SOME radar frequencies are
     p: > in the microwave band of the electromagnetic spectrum...
     p:
     p: So if you go for an MRI, would you stick your head in a microwave
     p: oven?
     p: Would you say microwave ovens need to be FCC licensed?
     p:
     p: They are two different regions of the EM spectrum, with different
     p: chemical and biological effects.  Pure and simple.  You can argue
     p: about where the dividing line should be, of course, just like you
     p: can argue about visible vs. infrared.  But claiming microwaves
     p: are radio waves is
     p: like claiming infrared is visible light, or X-rays are ultraviolet
     p: light.

     h: > Wouldn't be the first time the common usage of a term didn't agree
     h: > with the scientific usage.  To a scientist, the microwave and radio
     h: > regions of the EM spectrum are different.
     h:
     h: You keep saying that, yet you keep failing to define microwaves and
     h: radiowaves.
     h:
     h: Lessee...
     h:
     h: Radio waves: if you throw a pocket am radio into a pool, it makes
     h: radio waves.
     h:
     h: Micro waves: ditto, but throwing a microwave oven.
     h:
     h: No, that's not it.
     h:
     h: Your turn, P.

     s: >If radio waves were being used, they would penetrate your car, not be
     s: >reflected off it.  Radio waves do penetrate your house, for example.
     s: >You can have a transistor radio inside the car with you and it
     s: >will play, so radio waves penetrate your car.  Radar (microwaves)
     s: >depends on reflection by your car to work.
     s:
     s: Now quick, everyone move your radar detectors to the outside of
     s: your car. You know, if you keep it inside it won't detect anything,
     s: because the radar (microwaves) don't penetrate your car.

     p: OK, Smart ***, put your radar detector down on the seat and see how
     p: well it works.  Microwaves are transmitted by glass but reflected by
     p: metal. Can you say "Don't put metal containers in your microwave
     p: oven"?

     h: P, I bet you don't know why you're not supposed to do that.
     h:
     h: Could it be that the rf energy would concentrate on the sharp edges
     h: and cause sparks due to corona effect?
     h:
     h: Or could it be that the metal parts would reflect the 'micro waves'
     h: into outer space and interfere with the pk energy on Egon Spangler's
     h: backpack?

     k: WHAT THE HELL DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH POLICE RADAR
     k: JAMMER TEST RESULTS?

What indeed.  And welcome to Usenet.

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